By Daymond Duck.

We found this article on a Facebook page, and wanted to share it with you here..EXCELLENT resource!!

 

Thirty Six Pre-Trib Rapture Texts

1.There are no passages in either the Old Testament or the New Testament that say the Church will go through the Tribulation Period.

2.The Tribulation Period is called the “Time of Jacob’s Trouble” [The time of unbelieving Israel’s Trouble], but it is never called the time of the Church’s Trouble (Jer. 30:7).

3.Gabriel told Daniel, “Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people [Daniel’s people are the Jews] and upon thy holy city” [The Holy City is Jerusalem] (Dan. 9:24). There is no mention of the Church.

4.The Church had no part in the first sixty-nine weeks and it will have no part in the seventieth week [the Tribulation Period] (Dan. 9:24).

5.In the Book of Revelation, the Rapture occurs at Rev. 4:1 which is before the Tribulation Period described in Rev. 6:1-19:21. In the sequence of events, the Rapture is before the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments.

6.The Church is mentioned more than twenty times in the first three chapters of Revelation, but the Church is never mentioned in the description of the Tribulation Period between Rev. 4:1 and Rev. 19:1.

7.The Tribulation Period is called a Day of Wrath in the Bible (Zeph 1:15), but the Bible says, “God hath not appointed us [the Church] to wrath” (I Thess. 5:9).

8.The Tribulation Period is called a Day of Wrath in the Bible (Zeph. 1:15), but the Bible says, Jesus has “delivered us from the wrath to come” [delivered the Church from the Tribulation Period] (I Thess. 1:10).

9.The Tribulation Period is called the Day of the Lord in the Bible (Zeph. 1:14). The Bible says, “the day of the Lord [the Tribulation Period] so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they [the unbelievers] shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them [upon the unbelievers], as travail upon a woman with child; and they [the unbelievers] shall not escape” (I Thess. 5:2-3). It clearly teaches that the Tribulation Period will come upon unbelievers, but it does not include believers.

10.Concerning the Rapture, the Bible says, “Comfort one another with these words” (I Thess. 4:18). There’s no comfort in the teaching that the Church will go through part or all of the Tribulation Period.

11.Jesus told the Church at Philadelphia, “Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation [the Tribulation Period], which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth” (Rev. 3:10). God promised to keep the obedient Church members out of the Tribulation Period.

12.According to the Bible, the marriage of the Lamb will take place in heaven before Jesus comes back to fight the Battle of Armageddon at the end of the Tribulation Period (Rev. 19:7-21). This means the Church will go to heaven [be Raptured] for the marriage of the Lamb before the Second Coming.

13.The end of the age will be like the days of Noah (Matt. 24:37). Noah and his family were removed from the earth [got on the ark] before the flood. Some believe this means that the Church will be removed from the earth before the judgment of God [Raptured before the Tribulation Period] (Gen. 7:23).

14.The end of the age will be like the days of Lot (Luke 17:28). Lot and his family were removed from Sodom before the judgment of God [before the fire and brimstone fell] (Gen. 19:16). Some believe this means that the Church will be removed from the earth before the judgment of God [Raptured before the Tribulation Period].

15.Jesus was talking about the Tribulation Period when He said, “Pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass” (Luke 21:36). It seems unreasonable to believe Jesus would tell the Church to pray for something He is unwilling to grant.

16.The Bible says, “For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming” (II Thess. 2:7-8). The most common interpretation of this is that the Antichrist can’t be revealed until the Restrainer [who most commentators say is both the Holy Spirit and the Church] is removed. If the Restrainer is the Church only, this means the Church will be removed before the Antichrist is revealed [that’s the Pre-Trib. Rapture]. If the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit only so that the Holy Spirit is removed without the Church, this means believers will cease to be indwelt with the Holy Spirit. It also means the Church will be left behind to go through the worst time the earth has ever seen [the Tribulation Period] without the help of the Holy Spirit. This would contradict the teaching of Jesus when He said, “I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever” (John 14:16). And, “I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee” (Heb. 13:5).

17.Isaiah wrote that God said, “Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast. For, behold, the LORD cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain” (Isa. 26:19-21). Notice, that the dead rise first [that’s the Rapture], next God’s people are summoned to enter into His chambers for a short while until the indignation [a name of the Tribulation Period] is past. God will raise the dead and summon His people because He intends to punish the inhabitants of the earth [send the Tribulation Period].

18.Malachi wrote that God said, “They shall be mine, saith the Lord of hosts, in that day when I make up my jewels; and I will spare them, as a man spareth his own son that serveth him. Then shall ye return, and discern between the righteous and the wicked, between him that serveth God and him that serveth him not” (Malachi 3:17-18). Pre-Tribulation teachers believe God is saying He will come for His Church [the Rapture] and then He will return with His Church [the Second Coming] to judge between the righteous and wicked.

19.In the Rapture, Jesus comes for His Church (I Thess. 4:16-17; John 14:3). When He comes at the end of the Tribulation Period, He will come with His Church (I Thess. 3:13; Rev. 19:14).

20.Concerning the Second Coming, Jesus said, “But of the day and the hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only” (Matt. 24:36). But if the Church goes through the Tribulation Period, some will know the day because it will be seven years from the signing of the seven-year covenant. Some will know the day because it will be 1260 days from the day the Antichrist defiles the Temple (Rev. 12:6).

21.Concerning the Antichrist, many scholars believe the Bible teaches he won’t be revealed until after the Church is gone (II Thess. 2:6-8), but if the Church goes through the Tribulation Period, some will know who he is because he will sign the seven-year covenant (Dan. 9:24-27), he will head up the world government (Rev. 13:1-10), he will try to force multitudes to worship him, and to receive his mark, receive his name or his number (Rev. 13:15-17). Many of those who are here and being forced to worship him and take his name or die will know who he is.

22.The Antichrist is not suppose to be revealed until after the Church is gone (II Thess. 2:6-8), but if the Church goes through the Tribulation Period, the Church will know who the Antichrist is because he will put a statue of himself in the rebuilt Temple (Dan. 11:31; Dan. 12:11; Matt. 24:15).

23.If the Church goes through the Tribulation Period, the Church will know who the Antichrist is because he will head up the world government and receive a deadly wound to his head that will be healed (Rev. 13:3). Some think he will be raised from the dead or at least fake the resurrection.

24.If the Church goes through the Tribulation Period, the Church will know who the Antichrist is because he will head up the world government and be supported by the head of the world religion called the False Prophet (Rev. 13:11-18).

25.If the Church goes through the Tribulation Period, the Church will know who the Antichrist is because he’s the one that will kill the Two Witnesses (Rev. 11:7).

26.Many people don’t think the Church will go through the Tribulation Period because of verses of Scripture that say things like, “The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked he will destroy” (Psa. 145:18-20). Many believe God will preserve the Church from the Tribulation Period or keep the Church out of the Tribulation Period not destroy the Church in the Tribulation Period.

27.There are verses of Scripture that say things like, “Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it” (Deut. 4:2; Prov. 30:5-6; Rev. 22:18-19). Some believe people have to throw away verses of Scripture to believe the Church will go through the Tribulation Period.

28.In the seven letters to the seven churches, Jesus said, “He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches” seven times (Rev. 2:7,11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22). When we get to the Tribulation Period, Jesus said, “If any man have an ear, let him hear” (Rev. 13:9). He left out, “what the Spirit saith unto the churches” because there are no churches on earth to go through the Tribulation Period. The Church will be in heaven.

29.When the Rapture happens the Church goes up to meet Jesus in the air (I Thess. 4:13-18), but at the end of the Tribulation Period the Church will come down to the earth with Jesus to witness what He does at the Battle of Armageddon (Rev. 19:14-21).

30.The Pre-Tribulation Rapture is more consistent with God’s grace, love, mercy, compassion, etc. The Mid and Post-Tribulation Rapture is more consistent with God’s wrath.

31.If the Rapture takes place at the end of the Tribulation Period, and all the wicked are removed from the earth at that time (Matt. 13:24-30, 47-50; 25:41), no one will be left to re-populate the earth during the Millennium. If all of the saved are Raptured and all the lost are removed from the earth at the end of the Tribulation Period, no one will be left to re-populate the earth.

32.The Antichrist will prevail against the saints during the Tribulation Period, but the gates of hell won’t prevail against the Church (Rev. 13:7; Matt. 16:18). Therefore, the Church won’t go through the Tribulation Period.

33.The twenty-four elders [representatives of the Church] will be in heaven before the seven-sealed scroll is broken (Rev. 4:4; 6:1-17).

34.Jesus was talking about the Tribulation Period when He said, “Pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass” (Luke 21:36). He didn’t say, “Pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to endure some or all of these things that shall come to pass.”

35.There are no signs of the Rapture, but if the Rapture takes place during the Tribulation Period, it would have to be after the seven-year covenant is signed by the Antichrist, and perhaps after several other things depending upon what a person believes about Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, etc.

Jesus said, “When these things [the signs] begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads for your redemption draweth nigh” (Luke 21:28).

He didn’t say, “After all these things have happened your redemption draweth nigh.” He said, “When these things begin to come to pass it’s close.”

By Daymond Duck

37 COMMENTS

  1. your a prophet? your suppose to say “thus saith the Lord..wrong”….prove to me that these scripture do not talk about a pre-tribulation rapture messianic prophet…and please make sure you add to your post..thus saith the Lord.

    • If you’re a prophet your end is death. “All the good prophets are killed” as Jesus said, by religious elite. The false ones too. Even Jesus was executed.

      • Yahweh is sovereign and it is He alone, that determines when and how a person dies.. we are all here for His use and we all need to ‘rejoice exceeding’ that He has given us opportunity to work and die with Him, what an Honour. I was set on fire ( by a Muslim from Saudi Arabia) in the street as I Preached the Christ and today I love Jesus more than I ever have .. Yah Works in Mysterious Ways, let us never forget that ‘Yah is Love’ and He is also Omniscient .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6TvrBex4j4 … “Blessed are we when we are persecuted for Doing what Jesus says”…

    • One’s ligibility for a rapture has absolutely nothing to do with believing in it. There is no example of escaspism in scripture. The above list is unregenerate & rife with stretched inginuity & speculation masquerading as inspiration.

      Anyone forget to hand a heretical rapture tract to our brothers & families being beheaded and burned to death in Iraq? Oh I remember this gem ” caution, this car unmanned in the event of the rapture”. Only in a religious natal America could a bumper sticker like this be put on a car. Shameful.

      God has complete and total power to keep His own WITHIN His wrath, like the ten plagues and many other examples.

      “We are not appointed to endure the wrath of God”.. But that is not to parlayed to validate a rapture escapist heretical doctrine.

      Remember, Jesus said the first to be taken are the tares/weeds…not the wheat…..but you fail to read that?

        • ben you need salvation without that you cannot see the truth right in front of your face and your comments on this VERY WELL done study of Scripture pertaining to the Rapture is the irrefutable truth of that Reality. I guess you will have your belief when you find yourself in the Tribulation but take heart I’m sure you wont be alone.

          • As I said, and you have not addressed it, “One’s eligibility for any rapture has nothing to do with believing it”.

            There is no requisite for being “taken/caught up” that has to do with believing you will be at a certain time or will not be taken at a certain time. The quality of your character and “trimming of wicks” has to do with heart readiness not chanting rapture doctrine.

            I’ve been studying the Bible for over 50 years now and have been through the “Jesus movement” of the 60’s, Assemblies of God, various forms of Charismatics, Catholic renewal and was educated within the SDA confines as well. Note I say “confines” regarding them.

            “Where the spirit of the Lord is there is liberty”.

            The Holy Spirit was sent to “teach us all things” and bring “to our remembrance ALL..”. Not contrive escapist doctrines to flatter and ease the unwary and cajole new believer’s, an ancillary inordinate meant to deal with fears. That is God’s job.

            Jesus said it was His “peace that passes ALL UNDERSTANDING”..not as the world gives. That means it is not derived from matter, events here, the creation nor from a periodic table of elements. It is from God’s spirit and that means it is uncreated and eternal, therefore it is completely incomprehensible to the unregenerate mind, and likely even the regenerate mind.

            Also, this is not about salvation my friend, but errant doctrines. I am not certain how you arrive at the status of my salvation within this forum. Saying this article is “well done” is entirely subjective and simply is a position statement that plays into a preconceived rapture belief. It is no litmus test for salvation. That is heretical.

            You need to carefully reread what I wrote, eschewing the carnal reactive and let the Holy Spirit minister. It is prophetic.

            I am not a smooth professional minister. I cherish this. Really, here’s all the theology anyone needs:

            “Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marveled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.” ~ Acts 4:13

    • I’m a Pre-Trib believer and wouldn’t have it any other way but Yah’s Way.. Jesus..

      Post -Trib believers always remind me of a people who are Backslidden, Compromising, Lukewarm or otherwise in Heart, they know it and think they are going to get it right on the day but Salvation is not something we fully determine is it. Father Calls, Jesus Saves and Holy Ghost Leads, for these are the Sons of God and Woe to us if we don’t Come when He Calls (re-Esau) .. ref/Romans 8:14… https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iL2pBIvRMi0 .. selah.

      • It is crucial to see the Bible no where teaches either a “pre-trib rapture” *before* the Antichrist is revealed … or a “mid-trib rapture” *before* the Antichrist violates the covenant with Israel (Mt. 24:15) … nor a “post-trib rapture” that has the *saints* suffering the Day of the Lord Judgments under the Trumpets and Bowls. The Bible DOES NOT teach these three popular positions.

        The Scriptures teach that the saints are raptured (Mat 24:29-31)between the 6th and the 7th seals … which means that they will:

        (1) indeed the church will see the Man of Sin broker the peace covenant with Israel and her Muslim neighbor nations (Dan. 9:27, Mat 24:15), and …

        (2) they will indeed see that Man of Sin transform into the Antichrist Beast from the Sea (Rev. 13:1) when he violates this covenant right after the Middle of the Week erupts with the Dragon cast out of Heaven (Rev. 12:7-11) and will make war against the saints (who have not YET been raptured — Rev. 12:17), and …

        (3) the saints will NOT experience one drop of God’s Wrath (1 Thes. 5:9) which Jesus bore for them on the Cross.

        • Agree with you on rapture taking place between 6th & 7th Seal. But, the trib doesn’t begin till the end of the 6th Seal – note last two verses of Rev 6.

          Rev 5:1-4 where was Jesus? He must have not been ascended yet! So:

          Seal 1 – Catholicism – “many false Christ’s – Mat 24
          Seal 2 – modern war machine – “wars and rumors of war”
          Seal 3 – economics & commodities – “famines”
          Seal 4 – modern day medicine & disease labs – “pestilence”
          Seal 5 – riot now with the church beheadings

          Seal 6 is synonymous with WW3, and the gathering of the “tares,” and then the Rapture!

  2. Very well written article. In #16, I believe that the Holy Spirit must remain on earth as in the Tribulation people are saved (Rev. 7:9-14). The conviction characteristic of the Holy Spirit remains in the world but these Tribulation saints’ spirits are in heaven as they become martyrs for their new-found faith in Christ. So the Holy Spirit’s restraining characteristic is no longer in operation when the antichrist is revealed. The 2 witnesses and the 144,000 miraculously spread the gospel and the Holy Spirit saves many during the Tribulation.

    • The two witnesses cannot come unless the Holy Spirit and the Church are gone , if The Holy Spirit and Church are still here then there would not be a need for the two.witnesses
      Those who have ears hear what the Spirit is saying.

  3. So after the church gets raptured, the people whom the scorpions are told not to harm because they have the seal of God on thier foreheads are people who got saved after the rapture ? would that be ur opion ? Just trying to work it all out. Please could you let me know ur view, Thanks

      • REALLY…..
        Where does it say that?
        Nice dubious assumption though.
        It is necessary to note that you are indeed in the book of Revelation where there is a SERIOUS warning to those who ADD or SUBTRACT to the book… Rev. 22:18,19. Ouch… wouldn’t want to be in your shoes!

        • Revelation 7American Standard Version (ASV)

          7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that no wind should blow on the earth, or on the sea, or upon any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascend from the sunrising, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a great voice to the four angels to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, 3 saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we shall have sealed the [a]servants of our God on their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them that were sealed, a hundred and forty and four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:

          5 Of the tribe of Judah were sealed twelve thousand;
          Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand;
          Of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand;
          6 Of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand;
          Of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand;
          Of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand;
          7 Of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand;
          Of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand;
          Of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand;
          8 Of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand;
          Of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand;
          Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
          9 After these things I saw, and behold, a great multitude, which no man could number, out of every nation and of all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, arrayed in white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 and they cry with a great voice, saying,

          Salvation unto our God who sitteth on the throne, and unto the Lamb.

          11 And all the angels were standing round about the throne, and about the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 saying,

          Amen: [b]Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honor, and power, and might, be unto our God [c]for ever and ever. Amen.

          13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, These that are arrayed in the white robes, who are they, and whence came they? 14 And I [d]say unto him, My lord, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they that come out of the great tribulation, and they washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God; and they serve him day and night in his [e]temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall spread his tabernacle over them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun strike upon them, nor any heat: 17 for the Lamb that is in the midst [f]of the throne shall be their shepherd, and shall guide them unto fountains of waters of life: and God shall wipe away every tear from their eyes.

          • The 144,000 are also referred to as the first fruits of the resurrection. That means they are sealed prior to the rapture. They are given the equivalent of their resurrected bodies when they are sealed. This is how they remain unharmed during the wrath of God. Now, if the rapture had happened before the tribulation starts, then how are they the first fruits? Also, the restrainer is Micheal not the church. The church is weak and deluded hence, they must be tried and made white. Does nobody know the prophecies in Daniel? The horsemen, the Goat and the Ram and the 4 beasts all go together and help us in identifiying the times and the actors to watch for. The first horseman fits perfectly with Sadamm Hussein and the democratization of Iraq. The second horseman is Iran running blitzkrieg over the middle east causing men to kill one another. This is also The Ram.It is also the bear who is told to eat his fill. The 3rd horseman is Turkey Syria Egypt and one other country retaliating against the Ram. These countries fulfill the Goat and the 3rd beast. The 4th horseman is the arrival of the AC. He is the 4th beast. We know he arrives around mid trib. If you wake up and see that Iran is waging war across the middle east, know that you are looking at the second horseman and you are living in the tribulation.

  4. My concern is that although it would be great if we could escape the tribulation, I think that there is a danger in assuming that there would be a pre-tribulation rapture because if there isn’t and people are not prepared to go through the tribulation then that could shake their faith. These people would be wondering “Why am I still here? I am not prepared for this. This is not in line with what I have been taught to believe! What else have I been told that’s not true!?”

    The bible clearly indicates that Satan will impersonate Jesus and that it may even persuade the elect to believe the lie and fall away. So that is the basis of my fear in teaching the pre-tribulation. Even though we need to be prepared to go at any minute (because we don’t know when we are going to die), we should not discount the possibility that we may indeed have to go through the tribulation.

    So for the record, none of us really know the answer as there seems to be an ongoing debate about it, but I think that it is healthier spiritually to be prepared to go through the tribulation and thanks be to God if we don’t!

    • McPherson, an author in the 70’s wrote a book under numerous other names including his own, about how the rapture and pre-trib “escape” was unbiblical. There is truly a separation of the Church of true believers, and Israel. The Tribulation period was designed for the whole earth of those that rejected Christ, and those the nation of Israel. It was never meant nor does scripture support the Church going through the tribulation period.

  5. Answering ALL of these erroneous claims of the pretrib view…with scripture…not assumptions. The only argument the pretrb has is assumptions.

    1. John 16:33, 2 Tim 3:12, Mark 4:17, Dan 12:10. We are assigned to tribulation and persecution.

    2. The time of Jacob’s trouble is not the great tribulation. That is a false assumption. The prophesy Jer. 30,31 is indeed for Israel, it is a time that cause them to be scattered throughout the whole earth (30:10,11, 31:8), and it is the worse time EVER for Israel (Jacob who’s name was later changed to Israel) This period of time has come and gone (AD 70 through 1948). Isaiah tells us that after she is gathered she will never be scattered again. In AD 162 Jerusalem was exterminated of Jews. When the Messiah returns Jerusalem will be occupied by Jews Zech 12:4. Israel’s future is brighter than her past.

    3. No problem with the scripture, or the statement. The assumption is that the 70’th week is the great tribulation. It is not. The fact that the daily sacrifices have ended almost 2000 years ago should be a sign to those attempting to state that this termination is futuristic. Please, Wake Up!

    4. Here again, the assumption is based on fulfilled prophesy, that is attempted to made futuristic. Jesus HAS become the sacrifice Once and for all. Israel will be turning to THAT sacrifice in the future not a rebirth of animal sacrifice. Israel’s turning to their true Messiah will usher in His return.

    5. The rapture at Rev. 4:1 is an assumption, and addition to the book… read the warning to those who add to this book… Rev. 22:18… it’s pretty serious. Jesus tells us when He is coming in the book… Rev. 16:15… He is coming for those who are “watching” and keeping their garments. Guess what… He’s still coming, 12 chapters later.

    6.John writes specific letters to specific churches in the first 3 chapters, and they are specificity addressed and named. The churches mentioned are very similar to those we have today… Those who overcome, and those who do not…. those who are lukewarm and those who are hot or cold… those who’s names are written in the Lamb’s book of life, and those who are blotted out, or spewed out of His mouth. We are not talking about the saints, elect, etc. We are talking about a group of people who go to church, not necessarily saved. The saints are mentioned throughout the tribulation period.

    7.The Word makes a clear distinction between tribulation and God’s wrath. 1 Thess. 5:9… we are not appointed or assigned to wrath… BUT vs. 10 to salvation, and FOREVER living with Him. Our assignment is Eternal, just as God’s wrath is eternal… Rev. 14:10. It is an assumption to make God’s wrath temporal.

    8.Here again, the “wrath to come” is Hell… Rev. 14:10, forever burning in the lake of fire. God’s wrath isn’t a temporal death. Earth no matter how bad it gets, will always be like a Garden of Eden (or Heaven) to those who spend eternity in Hell. The first time God mentions (not man making the claim) His wrath is Rev. 11:18, where he judges those who are dead, and gives them their eternal reward.

    9.The Bible does NOT say that the “tribulation period” is the day of the Lord… YOU do! The day of the Lord comes as a great noise (zeph 1:14, 2 Peter 3:10, Matt. 24:35,36. The day comes AFTER the tribulation period.

    10. It is a dubious assumption concerning your context concerning the nature of comfort. The comforting words are addressing those being sorrowful over the dead… 1 Thess. 4:13, The entire context of the passage (vs. 13-18) is pertaining to those who sleep (are dead), vs. those who remain. The comforting words have nothing conjured idea of tribulation. Jesus tells us concerning tribulation to have peace and be of good cheer, concerning it… John 16:33. It’s not a sorrowful issue, like the loss of loved ones that is the context here.

    11. I’m glad that you see the contingency that is addressed in this verse, and that this is not a blanket promise for all. Psalm 91 and Luke 21:36 also parallel this passage. It is possible to escape all that is coming upon the earth, if we do our part, of praying always so that we are counted worthy to escape. If all those who are saved get raptured then works or worthiness has nothing to do with salvation, but rather with overcoming.

    12. According to YOU not the bible the marriage supper of the lamb is in heaven. The Bible states that the “bride has made herself ready”…. how does she make herself ready… by the righteous acts of the saints… where does she make herself ready… ON EARTH. The righteous acts aren’t achieved in heaven, but on Earth. Paul tells the bride how to make herself ready to present to the Father for when Jesus returns with all of His saints (who rise first and are in heaven)… 1 Thess. 3:12,13. The bride is on earth when Jesus comes with all of his saints.

    13.Some believe that, you are absolutely right on that. Paul tells us that God will send a delusion upon the whole earth… 2 Thess. 2:11,12. It’s because they refuse to love the truth.

    14. ditto on 13… you used the same argument.

    15.you are making an assumption that escape means rapture. Scripture makes it clear that it does not. To apply that meaning you must say that we are saved by works,or worthiness, which is contrary to the Word…Eph. 2:8,9. Why would you be praying always to be saved so you could get raptured? We are commanded to pray always that we may be counted worthy to escape all…Luke 21:36. If you believe that escape means raptured then how is your obedient response to the command to pray always… Praying it more than once makes salvation a faithless prayer. However, if you believe that you meet Jesus in the air immediately after the tribulation as it states in Matt. 24:29-31 and 1 Thess. 4:17, then you have every earnest reason to be praying the necessary prayer to escape each and every tribulation that is coming upon the earth and praying for the overcoming spirit to be counted worthy to escape it all.

    16. Notice all the “if’s” and assumptions that come with the interpretation to make the meaning fit the doctrine… If only there was just one solid piece of scripture to support the view… but alas….
    Perhaps God has put a restraint on evil… just as He has stated, and he then removes it…. If you remove the assumptions and conjecture from the pretrib view… you have absolutely nothing left of the doctrine.

    17.I do notice that the dead rise first… do you? … and those who REMAIN. Job 14:12, “Man lies down, and does not rise, till the heavens are no more they will not awake, nor be aroused from their sleep.” When are the heavens no more….2 Peter 3:10. Somehow the scripture missed the (pretrib) rapture…ooops

    18.Pretrib teachers believe a lot of things that is for sure…but the truth shall set you free.

    19.Jesus does come with all of His saints who have “risen first” (1Thess. 4:17), but not with the bride… He is come for the bride who has made herself ready… on earth… verse 12 goes with verse 13 (1 Thess 3:12,13)… the bride is on earth.

    20.Absolutely… you are on the right track… keep thinking and follow your thoughts through… Jesus also declares that He comes “as a thief.” If a rapture took place 7 years prior then that would “announce” the second coming and make Jesus into a liar on how he declared how He would come “like a thief” 1 Thess 5:2, 2 Peter 3:10, Rev. 16:15. Therefore, the 70th week, 7yr box is bogus as well as the pretrib rapture! You nailed it. The Word of God is true, and every man a liar!

    21.WARNING!!!!! God specifically WARNS us in this passage!!!! WAKE UP!!! PAY ATTENTION!!! “Let no man deceive you be any means..” Yet people are always quoting MAN rather than actually plainly reading the Word… Perhaps, it’s time to really seek God rather than man to get the TRUE meaning. Obviously, God has warned us in this particular verse, because of the delusion and perverse nature that the devil has twisted it.

    22. Perhaps there is a need to read the Word without the scholars commentary… you will see the Word states the opposite. Our gathering together with Him cannot be accomplished until AFTER the man of sin is revealed… 2 Thess. 2:1-3

    23.Yes, and the “man of sin” must be revealed PRIOR to our gathering together with Him… 2 Thess. 2:1-3…. It is amazing that in this passage the Word specifically WARNS, “Let no man deceive you be any means..” Yet people are always quoting MAN rather than actually plainly reading the Word… Perhaps, it’s time to really seek God rather than man to get the TRUE meaning. Obviously, God has warned us in this particular verse, because of the delusion and perverse nature that the devil has twisted it.

    24. See 21,22,23

    25 See 21,22,23,24

    26.Jesus promises us tribulation…John 16:33. Tribulation is not God’s wrath, but rather the the evil of man upon one another. God does not inflict tribulation, although He allows it. Paul glories in his tribulation Rom. 5:3. Jesus tells us to have peace, and good cheer concerning it… John 16:33. We are ASSIGNED to tribulation.

    27.Name One!

    28. If we actually look at the CONTEXT we can see who is addressed: ALL who dwell upon the earth…. not a particular group

    29.This is the 3rd time this argument is addressed… see 12 and 19

    30.Often I get asked why I would want to go through the tribulation, as if what I want has anything to do with it. You don’t get to pick and choose the truth, You get to discover it. Often the truth hurts, are you willing to choose it no matter what the cost? If not a lie awaits you.

    31. Jesus will return to Earth, just like He ascended up into heaven. On His way down we meet Him in the air… He is not on His way up, but down… Those who make it to the end are not heaven bound, but are on earth next to those who were martyred during the tribulation. Those who are martyred have their glorified bodies and rule and reign with Him for 1000 years in the New Jerusalem, those who made it to the end and meet Him in the air populate the earth.

    32. Prevail: prove more powerful than opposing forces; be victorious

    The word prevail proves that God’s people will indeed be there, you cannot prevail without a fight. Not showing up for a fight doesn’t make you victorious, it makes you a coward.

    33. Representing the church…. catch ya… where’s the church mentioned here? The church isn’t mentioned in heaven… HELLO! Because the church isn’t in heaven… just the bride and the saints! The church is a group of people … saved and unsaved… not necessarily heaven bound. I realize it is very difficult to unwrap you mind around the doctrines of man that really twist the truth.

    34. No He sure didn’t… repeat argument addressed in …15

    35. Jesus tells us exactly when the rapture will take place… Rev. 16:15. Paul tells us exactly when the rapture will take place 1 Cor. 15:51,52, “at the last trumpet” Jesus tells us exactly when the rapture will take place… Matt. 24:29-31. Peter tells us exactly when the rapture will take place 2 Peter 3:10 (Matt. 24:41,42, 1 Thess. 5:2)

  6. Aren’t “the church” and Israel kind of interchangeable. Israel is the church. As for anyone else we are adopted into christs church. The church is the people, all of Gods people.

  7. At the end of the day BIBLE AND LOGIC are poles apart anyway, that’s why Gods Logic is called THEOLOGIC .. pressing the point that ‘Father/Ancient of Days’ knows the REAL REALITY of it ALL .. Yeah.. ref/John 14:1-6.. 1 Corinthians 2:13-15.. Have a Glory Bound Day ..

  8. Extended Dialogue is not really my thing .. I prefer (am led) to keep it SHORT & SIMPLE as possible and not to go outside of SCRIPT, lest we exalt our minds above what is Written. And also not to speak beyond ones true understanding in haste, lest the Devil be given room for pride and confusion to come in. So let me say this .. regardless to pre/mid or post trib.. times of His Coming, where, when or how.. we ALL know and Prophesy/Preach in ‘PART’.

    The MAIN ISSUE is, that we are READY .. NOW!.. yeah?… Don’t let the Devil try to condemn you if you don’t know ALL the parts .. Myself personally, the part that I’m well aware of and witness to, is in 1Thessalonians 4:13-18. Not every person this very day will be alive/on planet earth.. V17..to see the Lawless one revealed or the Coming of Messiah, just as, not all will be Fully Mature in the Christ when He comes but let me warn you …

    ALL of us need to be PERFECT in Father’s Eyes/Living up to the ‘Light-Knowledge’ one has when Messiah Comes .. re/and those who ‘REMAIN’ (must have a LIVE/Living – Loving Hot Relationship going with Jesus (whether babe or mature) if He is going to take them, own them… ref/Colossians 1:28-29. And if we are not around, we must die and go to the grave HOT for the Christ .. http://www.fireandhammer.com/christianperfection.htm ..

    And also, we need to have the understanding on who is a ‘REAL SAINT/REALLY HIS’ which is seen in part through Luke 8:21 + 1 John 1:6-7 + 1 Peter 4:1. You are all welcome to peruse my SERIES called .. WHAT IS A SAINT? (free of charge) .. http://www.fireandhammer.com/what_is_a_saint.htm .. I now think I could have called it “WHO WILL BE SAVED OR WHO ARE REALLY HIS”.. MMM.. interesting indeed .. Without this we Labour in Vain .. Shalom… :/

  9. MARANATHA ! RAPTURE IS FOR HIS BRIDE ,THE BODY OF BELIEVERS WHO ARE THE BODY OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST .THE BRIDE IS RAPTURED FOR WEDDING ,AND IS NOT LEFT IN THE TRIBULATION DOWN HERE TO BE CLINSED OR TRYIED HER FAITH .THE BLOD OF JESUS CHRIST PAID THE PRICE OF OUR STATUS OF CHILDREN OF GOD ,IN THIS GRACE PERIOD AND IS ENOUGH! NO TRIBULATION FOR THE SANTS WASHED BY HIS BLOOD IN TIME OF GRACE!!! PERIOD !!!!DO NOT BE DECEIVED BY THE FATHER OF LIES !! P.S.AND PLEASE ,PLEASE FORGIVE MY CAPITAL LETTERS BECAUSE MY SIGHT IS VERY POOR AND MY ENGLISH BROKEN 1I DO NOT YELL TO ANYBODY, PLEASE TOLERATE MY WRITING ON THIS COMMENT ! I LOVE YOU ALL ! SEE YOU ALL ON THE CLOUDS SOON!! COME LORD JESUS COME !!

  10. Whether we believe scripture teaches pre-mid-or post trib, the one thing scripture is clear on is that we should not consider ourselves better. God will judge our thoughts and attitudes. Love one another.

  11. God and I know pre-tribbers twist and pervert the doctrines to no end on this particular area so let us address your foundation.your foundation is dual-covenant and dispensationalism which teaches that their are two ways to Father, one through Works+Faith and one through Grace through Faith. And some of you pre-tribbers teach a dual gospel theology to go along with these other doctrines.

    So with dual-covenant theology your taught that the Old Covenant saints were saved with Faith+works and under the NT during the dispensation of Grace, saints are saved by Grace through Faith apart from works.

    When the dispensation of Grace ends and the New Covenant Pauses as the church is raptured , then you teach that these tribulation saints will revert back to Faith+works of the old Covenant and all the righteous mortals will continue under the old covenant system and those of the tribe of Levi and line of Aaron will tend the physical temple and levetical priesthood during the trib and through the millinium. Then some other pre-tribbers add that their were two types of Gospels preached. One was the Gospel to the Jews called the Gospel of the Kingdom and the other to the Gentiles Called the Gospel of Grace.

    Of course all three doctrines are false because Salvation has always been the same as Grace through Faith apart from works and never  Faith+works because in order to be righteous through works one must be sinless. Which Jesus was the only Human to accomplish this task to merit and be imparted righteousness and glorification in the Human body. And why through Grace and not Faith +works of sacrifice or obedience were OT saints as David or NT saints as us now must trust on God’s unmerited Favor through the Works of the Messiah.

    Grace was known and taught in the OT, especially through David when David acknowledged that God did not desire animal sacrifice but asks God to have Mercy on Him instead. David knew that works does not bring forgiveness nor salvation. As Paul further understood as well, but the false Pharisees of Paul’s time taught works salvation and why He spoke against it so much, not because of any special period of Grace but because it always had been through Grace did God show Mercy towards elect sinners.

    The OT is obsolete, it’s Law is superseded by Christ’s Law and the Levetical priesthood will no longer be in service to God and His Temple. But now and eternally is the New Covenant, its eternal Heavenly New Jerusalem Kingdom of Royal Priests serving as the Temple made and indwelled by God the Spirit and being under the Law of Love.

    Those whom embrace pre-trib advocate a works gospel and a grace gospel and thus those whom do so and depend on this doctrine without repenting of it,are no different then the type of judaizers Paul called false brothers and God’s Grace not being applied to you cause you taught some will have to earn their salvation before and after a make believe dispensation .

    Those whom are OSAS cannot uphold this doctrine with harmonization cause with all works based systems, salvation is never guaranteed and is a direct contradiction of TULIP.

    But also if one depends on Gods Mercy for forgiveness you are always under unmerited Grace. If you could earn your own redemption, then their would be no reason to ask for Gods Mercy which is brought about by Grace alone as a free Gift.

    Sense Pre-tribbers teach that only under the New Covenant and dispensation of Grace, one can be saved by Gods Mercy,must prove that the OT Saints never depended on Gods Mercy and were able to accomplish sinless perfection.

    Jesus whom is immutable and impeccable being sinless never relied on Gods Mercy of forgiveness but earned and was imparted human righteousness and glorification.

    A fallen creature must rely on Gods Favor and Mercy to be granted mental repentance and Faith in Jesus.

    Show one instance that David while confessing his sins to God acknowledged that God desired an animal blood sacrifice over the sole reliance on Himself to show Mercy through Grace.

    The correct position is post-trib as it does not part the resurrection-rapture from the last day at the 7th trumpet to be resurrected and raptured to Christ into the first heaven:our atmosphere.

  12. It has everything to do with believing it. Why would Jesus take you w him, if after warning to watch for his return, you refused to do so? Revelation 13:18, proves a pretrib rapture.all of those who remain on earth, who’s names are not in the book of life. When Micheal stands up all of those in the book of life shall be saved. Jesus warned of the foolish virgins. 5, were waiting, 5 were caught sleeping. The wheat and the tares, are for judgement day. The church is found worthy for the rapture. First the rapture, then tribulation, armeggedon, the millinial kingdom then judgement day. After jesus comes to do battle. Nobody would want to be saved if they had to endure the tribulationl, the same fate as non believers. Jesus beats up his bride, then elinvites to the wedding feast. Ok. Rapture: meet the lord in the air. Second coming: Jesus comes down on a horse w the saints to do battle.

  13. ONLY THE ‘SALTY’ WILL BE SAVED/SPARED .. There can be no doubt about it .. Jesus Looks after, Saves, Loves, Rescues and Redeems His Bride/True Church/Wife from the Wrath of Yahweh to be poured out Full Strength into His Cup of Indignation. And to even consider a debate about PRE-MID-POST UPWARD CALL would be outright doubt and Unbelief of established canon .. The Spirit/Holy Ghost and the Water/Word that I was born of has convinced me beyond a second thought of a Pre-Trib take away.. ref/Matthew 5:11-13, John 3:5, 1 Peter 1:23, .. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cVY3MNm-VE&t=181s .. Selah and Rejoice for Mashiah draws nigh!!!.. ‘MY BELOVED IS MINE AND I’M MY BELOVEDS’!!

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